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Andrew's Journal


 The Trinity
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The Trinity is an essential tenet of the Christian faith.  The Trinity is also a tenet that is misunderstood by many and ridiculed by others.  It might be called illogical.  After all, this doctrine teaches that the one God is in three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  Some would, then, accuse Christianity of tri-theism, i.e. that we believe in three gods.  Yet this is not what the Trinity is.  True Christianity holds firmly to monotheism, that there is only one true God, and that that God is Yahweh of the OT.  Yet, the doctrine of the Trinity teaches that Yahweh has revealed Himself in three distinct persons.  Yahweh has revealed Himself as the Father, as the Son, and as the Holy Spirit; however, He is one God.  Now I imagine that few would argue against the deity of the Father, but what about the Son and the Spirit. 

            For the sake of space, I will only make one point about the divinity of both the Son (Christ) and the Spirit.  When you read the NT and see the title of Lord ascribed to Jesus Christ, and even to the Spirit, it means nothing less than that the Son and the Spirit are God, co-equal with the Father.  This is even clearer when we go to the Greek of the NT.  The word translated Lord in the English versions of the NT is Kurios.  Kurios is also the word used in the Greek OT (Septuagint) for the Hebrew word translated LORD in English versions of the OT, YHWH (Yahweh).  This connection is seen quite explicitly in Romans 10.  In Romans 10:13, Paul quotes from Joel 2:32, where it says “And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.”  Now Paul quoted this verse from the Septuagint where the Hebrew YHWH is transmitted into the Greek as Kurios.  What Paul teaches in this portion of Romans 10 is that anyone who confesses, “Jesus is Lord” will be saved.  So he says, “For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord (Kurios/Yahweh) is Lord (Kurios/Yahweh) of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, ‘Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord (Kurios/Yahweh) will be saved’” (Romans 10:12-13 parentheses added).  So, when we confess Jesus as Lord, we are identifying Him as Yahweh.  In 2 Corinthians when Paul says the Lord is the Spirit, he is saying the Spirit is Yahweh.  Therefore, the Son is God and the Spirit is God. 

            There are some popular analogies drawn from the natural world to illustrate the Trinity.  Some like to use the egg with the yoke, the white of the egg and the shell.  I personally like water as an analogy with its three material phases—solid, liquid, gas.  Whether it is solid ice, refreshing liquid, or in the vaporous gas form, water remains to be water.  Now, like any analogy, this is hardly a perfect picture of the Trinity.  It is best to understand that Yahweh, the one true God, has revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Spirit; moreover, it is important to understand that these three are distinct persons, i.e., the Father is distinct from the Son, and the Son distinct from the Spirit.  Nonetheless, they are all Yahweh/Kurios.  The only reason this seems illogical is that it is so difficult for our finite understanding to comprehend.  This is why Scripture is so important.  God is so beyond our understanding.  So, we need Him to tell us about Himself, and we need His special revelation so that when someone claims to have a revelation about God, we can measure against what God has revealed about Himself in Scripture; and it is important to understand that Scripture is not a man-made revelation as it is often alleged today.  The OT and NT Scriptures are a consistent revelation of God and His redemptive purpose in Jesus Christ written by various authors over many centuries (about 4,000 years in fact).  The Scriptures reveal to us the nature and character of God, and this nature and character of God is consistent throughout the 66 books of the Bible.  The Trinity is no less part of that revelation, which is why it is considered an essential doctrine of Christianity.       

                  

Posted by Andrew J at 5:57 PM - 6 Comments   Add a Comment  
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Comments:

I find it odd that you would quote so much of my post in your comment. I have to respectfully disagree with you on your distinction between Yahweh and Jehovah, as you indicate that Yahweh is the Father and that Jehovah is Christ. I must disagree because Jehovah is actually a mix of YHWH (Latin JHVH) and the vowels of Adonai. Thus, j(y)-e-h(h)-o-v(w)-a-h(h). So how you came to the conclusion that Jesus is Jehovah and that the Father is Yahweh is a mystery to me. Indeed, the prophets of the OT believed in only one true God-Yahweh. Yahweh is the one God who has revealed Himself in three distinct persons throughout Scripture. To be fare I would agree that our Creator did make us with the ability to understand Him, but considering how infinite He is, I sincerely doubt we will ever have a full understanding of Him. And certainly, God does not need our anologies, thus I mentioned them not for His benefit; also, as I said, no anaolgy is perfect, which is why I did not make that my arguement, but focused on the synonomy of YHWH and Kurios between the Hebrew and Greek testaments. I will end with Paul's doxology from Romans 11:33-36: Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" "Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?" For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.  
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by Andrew J (PM , CC ) on Thursday November 17, 2005 @ 2:25 PM




You go to your orthodox college and get your orthodox education. Be careful out there. If you take the time to review documentation much closer to the time of the mortal Christ, it will set much of what you are learning on its ear. The trinity was set into place not to be understood. Thus, it cannot be misunderstood. It begins as a great mystery. "The only reason this seems illogical is that it is so difficult for our finite understanding to comprehend." I am quite sure our creator would not have created every one of us unable to understand He is. Monotheism is not what was being taught at the time of Christ. Nor was it taught by earlier prophets who foretold of Christ's arrival. ------------------------------------------"Kurios" is something you have noticed. Good. Very Good. Unfortunately, you have bought into the party line by starting with the Trinity as THE ANSWER, then building your evidences up to support it. A true investigator works with an open mind as to where the evidence leads. You are correct in noting that the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are One in the same. because of Kurios. They are both the premortal Jesus Christ. Jehovah is the premortal Jesus Christ. The Jehovah of the Old Testament speaks of His pierced palms. It is in your old testament scriptures. Now, it would be misleading for God the Father to speak of his pierced palms. Yahweh is the Father and prior to the mission of His Son, Jehovah was to gain all that His Father has as a consequence of His success. So when you identify "(Kurios/Yahweh)" you are identifying the Father and the Son together, separately. Forget about your popular analogies in trying to describe the trinity. God the Father and the Son did not need them earlier. -----------------------------------------------------It took many hundreds of years to pass after Christ for that to take form.  
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by Stealtharachnid (PM , CC ) on Thursday November 17, 2005 @ 2:32 PM




I realized that I had added your post to mine by mistake. In the time it has taken me to rewrite, you posted again----------------You say "Indeed, the prophets of the OT believed in only one true God-Yahweh." How's that different from what I am saying? They didn't say one identity/one form. Who was this other divine identity/form that was to arrive later and obviously separately? There are too many inconsistancies for the orthodox trinity to be true, logically. Repeatedly we have Christ acting and living in apparent disception to everyone looking on. Identifying and referring to His Father as Someone else. Apparently praying to Him all for show. All the way to the end....Father, forgive them fore they know not...There is no sense in it. How did this voice come from Heaven after Christ's baptism? It was an identity speaking to us of another identity. Both of them Divine and separate. If what Orthodoxy attests this in the trinity, they equally identfy a God who is deceitful. I don't believe in such a God. It is insulting to God to suggest that He created us intellectually incapable of understanding the most basic, fundamental, truth. That Truth: Who is God? The trinity is an invention of man. There is no basis for it in the earliest church organization.  
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by Stealtharachnid (PM , CC ) on Thursday November 17, 2005 @ 3:03 PM




You wrote, "Monotheism is not what was being taught at the time of Christ. Nor was it taught by earlier prophets who foretold of Christ's arrival." If they were attesting to only one true God, then they are teaching monotheism, which is why I said that they OT prophets believed in one God. Now concerning the trinity, it is not a man-made doctrine, it is simply an observation that in Scripture, the one true God, who told Moses "I AM" is REVEALED in three PERSONS. This is why Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, could pray to the Father. Also, orthodox Christianity maintains both the divinity and humanity of Jesus Christ. He was a man, but He was also God. That is why Matthew identifies Christ as the Immanuel (God with us) from Isaiah 7:14. The apostles all spoke of Jesus as equal with God and as human, the author of Hebrews also spoke of the divinty and humanity of Jesus, the Son of God. When the apostles ascribe the title of Lord to Jesus, they are equating Him with God. What does the Shema of Deuteronomy 6:4 state? That Yahweh, the God of Israel, and of Jesus the Son of Man, who is the Son of God in human flesh, is one. I am not the one making that arguement, it is the chosen apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ who attested to the deity of Christ, as did the Hebrew prophets of the OT. I am simply relaying that truth on this blog. You and anyone else is free to disagree, but I will continue without hinderance. And perhaps one day I will review the documents of which you speak and I will be able to make a more informed arguement.  
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by Andrew J (PM , CC ) on Thursday November 17, 2005 @ 3:25 PM




The language of your last post: I agree with all of it. None of it denies a celestialized body of flesh and bones to the Father and the Son (being unsupportable scripturally). None of it represents fixed doctrine. Good for you. You are becoming a good minister from my observation, believing what you know you cannot understand (Trinity), avoiding responding to certain particulars of the scriptures. Upholding the bu$iness of clergy, the brotherhood, helping others to wander in their discovery of the truth, but never finding it within orthodoxy......learning the skill of keeping them in the game, not offending, not correcting the folks that fill your pockets. Of course Christ didn't do that; it was the Pharisees, the whited sepulchres. Be careful.  
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by Stealtharachnid (PM , CC ) on Thursday November 17, 2005 @ 5:46 PM




I am sure you know that we are not omniscient. Neither do I wish to diminish the God-given potential of the human mind. Yet, that potential is nothing compared to all of who and what God is and what He knows. I am not a minister (I am only an undergraduate student in Bible college) who engages people in a futile search for the truth in order to fill my pockets (which are not very full at all). That is an assumption I can understand someone having, but it does not apply to me or to the church I attend (yes, my church does take offering, but does not encourage visitors to contribute). The truth is not a futile pursuit within "orthodoxy". Orthodoxy recognized that Jesus Christ is the Truth as He himself said. Do not confuse orthodox Christian doctrine (founded on the apostles)with postmodernism, which dilutes the minds of millions of college students into thinking that there is no ultimate truth, or that if there is, it is unattainable. The purpose of this blog series is to discuss the truth about God that HE HAS REVEALED about Himself in Scripture through his prophets and apostles. Does He reveal all? Absolutely not. Paul certainly didn't think so when he wrote the doxology in Romans 11. All the writers of Scripture has such a reverance for Yahweh because of how awesome He is, and how uncomprehensible. What does God himself say? That His ways and His thought are higher than ours? Who can know everything about God but God Himself? What God has revealed are the essentials, what we need to know to know who or what is NOT God or Messiah or Spirit, and so that we can be redeemed from sin and death through faith in Jesus Christ. Only if God grants you ominscience will you know everything. But knowing the Truth is not dependant on knowing everything about everything, but in knowing from Whom all things came, and for whom all things came. If we know Christ, we know the Truth, and we have the Spirit of truth in us so we can discern truth from non-truth. So to accuse me and historical Christian doctrine of hindering or perpetuating the search of truth is, I must respectfully say is unfounded. The Trinity is essential because to deny it is to deny the deity of Christ. And if Christ is not God, then He is not Savior, for only God is Savior. Nor is He Lord, for only God is Lord. And I do not seek to offend. Do I expect to? Yes. Is the cross of Christ offensive to the world? Absolutely. But, are we to go out to offend? Not at all. Are we to correct and engage our culture and each other? Yes. That is why I am writing this blog, to challege the misconceptions about God in Western Culture. I realize that in doing so I will probably offend many, which is not my aim. Nonetheless, I am going about it, and not one cent is going to be added to my non-existant bank account. And I might actually agree with you that orthodoxy is not the truth. Christ is the Truth, yet this is precisely what "orthodoxy" affirms. "In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs" (Hebrews 1:1-4).  
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by Andrew J (PM , CC ) on Thursday November 17, 2005 @ 8:35 PM


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   
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